Green and Clean mom -- please take this article and all posts off your site.

Perhaps in its place you can write an article that suits having put me, you and Annie in this position. Nameless of course. Suggestions: How not to put yourself out there on the net. The dangers of internet use. Moms need to support one another. Something like that.

You just can't stop fighting, arguing, debating, discussing, and ultimately being right right right.

Just stop yourself. Walk away from the computer for a day and you may realize that you don't have to have the last word.

You took all references of my name and article link from your site because your best judgment spoke up and told you to do the right thing.

I sinply posted this because you questioned my mental health after kicking me in the gut and I posted it before you removed all info about me.

I think enough has been said and if you are a big person you will not feel the need to continue the personal flogging of Colleen.

You don't need to have the last word here, please continue to choose to do the right thing.

Wow!

Quoting from someone's work published on the Internet is not a violation of fair use, despite what you attempted to say in follow-up e-mails that I will not publish here. However, copying and pasting an e-mail onto the Internet IS a violation of copyright.

Colleen - I'm happy to have this discussion privately or publicly, but for you to insist that I remove your name from everything on my blog and then go and copy and paste this over here is a bit odd.

I'm not making an assumption about you having mental health issues, you said yourself in your comments here and on my blog (which I have removed on mine because you don't want your name up) that "you no longer feel safe and are concerned for your mental well being". I wasn't assuming anything.

<abbr>Annie @ PhD in Parentings last blog post..BlogHer ‘09</abbr>

This is what I received in a personal e-mail. Annie cares more about being correct and about her website than another live human being. She goes on to now make assumptions that I have mental health issues also:

Dear Colleen,

I don't know what to say.

My article was not intended to me mean spirited, nor was my comment on your post. It seems you took my original comment as an attack on you for not breastfeeding when it clearly was not. I don't understand why you feel that your opinion on the matter is valid and mine is not. Yours was a personal story until you started telling other moms what to do. I went to great care in my article to explain that I wasn't attacking you as a person or attacking the fact that you ended up formula feeding. I was only disagreeing with the advice you were giving to other women because it is dangerous.

I can remove your name, the link to your other article, and your comment from my post if you like. But I still think the message is important and I won't remove the article.

I'm sorry if it is difficult for you to view. People don't always agree on things and we have to discuss important issues like this. I would recommend counseling if you are having mental health issues.

Let me know if you want me to remove all references to you.

Annie

I feel sick to my stomach.

phdinparenting or Annie has chosen a very mean-spirited attempt at debunking my statement by creating a poll about me.

I have to wonder if she understands that she is making me feel unsafe about being on the internet. I am terribly upset that people are spiteful enough to go beyond stating their distaste with me and start stirring the pot instead. This is so hateful!

Shame on moms who decide to push another mom over the edge. I now have to get counselling after this spiteful, and personal attack.

Please remove my article from your Green and Clean website as I no longer feel safe. And I am concerned for my mental well being at this point.

I agree you were given Lots of misplaced information and not enough support. Just wanted to add a helpful link for all the moms who are willing to try... www.lalecheleague.org This org has a help line, 24 hour support,support groups... all are answered and run by moms who have breastfed and are trained to help other moms.

I would LOVE to see some support for women with no milk supply. Even the great GOOGLE didn't have much to say about it! I saw lots about women with LOW milk supply, but next to NOTHING about women with NO milk supply.

And despite all of these problems I will still try again if I am lucky enough to be pregnant again!

I put up a poll on my blog a few days ago after reading this post and I just put up the results of the poll and a longer commentary on why Colleen's suggestion that moms should give up at 2 weeks has been upsetting me so much.

http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/03/08/when-t...

<abbr>Annie @ PhD in Parentings last blog post..When to give up on breastfeeding</abbr>

Susie I don't understand your comment "I can never understand the point of this type of personal experience" -- what do you mean?

I am one of those very few women who "CAN'T" breastfeed -- and I get down every time I hear someone say that everyone can do it, you're just not trying hard enough. I had NO milk and did EVERYTHING and was devastated. So it can happen and in my opinion, the best way is to just be supportive of everyone's personal decisions because the most important thing is to have a well-fed, healthy baby.

Michelle, I feel your pain, I also could NOT breastfeed. I could have tried for months and my child would have starved because I simply cannot make milk. End of story. I think that Susie cannot understand because the idea of women not making milk and it not being possible for every woman is simply not something she has considered or it is possible lactation consultants and support people have said this isn't true. It bothers me too and like I have commented over and over, it is drawing a line and putting me on one side and Susie on another when really I'm pro healthy well-fed child more than anything. I'm pro supporting women and realizing that we all have our limits and know when to stop and it isn't for me to judge another mom for that choice.

I think women should be prepared to encounter problems when they first start breastfeeding. I think a lot of women expect it to be easy, and when there's a first sign of trouble, they bail out and switch to bottle-feeding. It took at least two weeks to figure out the latch with my firstborn, I was at the local breastfeeding clinic *constantly*, but with patience, and practice, we figure it out. #2 came along, and surprise, surprise, I had latch issues with her too (I may have breastfed before, but she certainly hadn't!). #3 latched on perfectly the second he was born, latch issues with #4 again. The important thing is to be prepared for difficulty. Make your partner understand beforehand that he has to support you -- and that means encouraging you to work through any breastfeeding issues, not pushing a bottle at the first sign of trouble. Very few women *can't* breastfeed (as in, having no milk). Latch issues are a bitch, but they can be overcome. I know many women who took months to work through it, then went on to have successful breastfeeding relationships.

I can never understand the point of this type of personal experience, it's a great way to scare women who are unsure about breastfeeding off. Makes it look simply awful! With the right support, and perseverence, you can do it.

Just a suggestion, for moms struggling with milk supply, not that this is the be-all-end-all remedy, but Fenugreek tea can be of help. I would suggest trying this before going the way of medications.

<abbr>Melodies last blog post..Daylight Savings 2009: Why Breastfeeding Moms Will Lose Even More Sleep Tonight</abbr>

I know an extremely organic mother that had trouble as well. She was thoroughly upset that her milk wasn't coming in at all. As I understood it, after a lot of trouble some medication finally helped her milk come in. I'm not sure I would have endured the excessive hassle had it been that way with my baby. I thank God I didn't have any trouble with my milk or the latching on, but if I had, formula isn't the end of the world.
--Charane

<abbr>EverythingGreenHomes last blog post..Go Green: Work from Home</abbr>

Formula is far from the end of the world. What matters is a healthy baby and mom. I refused to medicate myself to breastfeed, that made no sense to me but for moms that decide to do this, that is okay. We all have to do what is going to work for us and our own health and sanity. We're forgetting this too - a mom's mental well-being.

I understand completely. I pumped for 4 months with my first and 6 months with my second. And I was so completely stressed out not to mention how much work it is. My 3rd came along and I didnt even try to get her to latch I had already decided she was getting a bottle and you know what? She was a much happier baby than my first 2. We are due with our 4th in 3 months and she will also be getting a bottle.

<abbr>Hylas last blog post..Project Eden</abbr>

I am so very sorry for your experience. I am thrilled that you wound up with a happy healthy baby (eventually), but am heartbroken for the experience that you had to go through. I am a breastfeeding peer counselor for WIC in my area and in my experience most women, given the right support can succesfully breastfeed. It seems that you got alot of information that is totally conflicting with what we recomend to achieve succesful breastfeeding, I must admit I was totally cofused and fed up by the end of your story and can't imagine how you must have felt going through it. I also had a baby with bad jaundice that had to go through the "breastfeeding break" to break it and breastfeeding in general was difficult. My later children took to breastfeeding like ducks to water and though they were all fulilling experiences, they were not always easy. I hope you give it a try again should you have another baby. Something to remember though, even breastfeeding your baby one time is such a gift to your baby. I applaud all of yor decisions to do what's best for your baby and yourself.

It seems as though there is little information to support women who don't have a milk supply. Are peer counselors trained in this area? How does this impact children who go without proper nourishment for weeks because mother is trying to breastfeed?

I didn't comment to make anyone feel bad or to flaunt my bond with my son. That wasn't my intent. For what it is worth, I think it is possible to attain the same bond by bottle feeding with love. I'm glad you shared your story and I don't take issue with anything you said other than your suggestion that everyone should give up at 2 weeks if it isn't working for them.

I put up a poll on my blog this morning asking moms if they struggled with breastfeeding and if the issues they were having had resolved themselves by the 2 week period or not. Almost half of the 185 people that responded to my poll were still having problems with breastfeeding at the 2 week mark, but went on to have a successful breastfeeding experience.

It is not my place to tell a mother how long she should try before giving up if she is struggling. However, if everyone turned in the towel at 2 weeks if things were not going well, then probably about half of the people that do end up successfully breastfeeding would not have the chance.

Green & Clean mom:

You said that BLANK may wish to suggest to other moms that they should give up at 2 weeks and that it is okay. That they don't have to listen or they can listen. Well, in the same way that moms that do choose formula don't want to have other people judging their choice and telling them they did the wrong thing, moms that are struggling with breastfeeding and do want to make it work, don't need other people undermining that decision by encouraging them to quit. It can make them feel awful and feel like they don't have the support of those around them. If a mom wants to keep trying, people that care for her should encourage her. If she wants to give up, they should tell her that is fine and not make her feel guilty for her choice.

<abbr>Annie @ PhD in Parentings last blog post..Please vote in poll on breastfeeding!</abbr>

First off, I think you got a bum wrap with a bunch of misinformation that set you up for this struggle. It's regrettable and a great reason why we need to address some of these crazy ideas circulating about how breastfeeding begins. Especially because you so wanted to succeed and actually had milk to give!!!
One thing that struck me is: why were you made to believe you should have milk available for your baby only 24 hours after delivery? And who has figured out the latch after only a few hours? I was still struggling with the latch after 5 weeks!

It's so frustrating to read that well meaning professionals can make or break this experience with their misguided pressure and suggestions.
In spite of this, I do agree with Annie above, that the expectation of how long it takes to become successful at breastfeeding needs to be addressed - it's not as easy as they make seem but it can be done.

<abbr>Monicas last blog post..Great Links: Ahhh…More time to read!</abbr>

Annie,

I think that BLANK was writing her opinion and to that she entitled, as are all of us. For her, that is what she might suggest to others and that's okay - they don't have to listen or they can listen, it is up to them. I think that in saying this, she is just trying to help others not suffer what she suffered and went through. I can really relate to this.

A long time ago I would have envied you and wished that I could have breastfed and had that "bond" with my baby but now I honestly say, I still bonded and enjoyed my time with my son and daughter and have no regrets. My regret is not trusting myself and feeling a guilt. Frankly, I read some of the comments and there is still a feeling of judgment and it isn't intentional - at least I hope not.

Women should stop saying they are pro this and pro that and just support one another. If a mom bottle feeds and doesn't even "fight" to breastfeed that is OKAY. She has her reason and when you put a pro side to it the mom who doesn't breastfeed feels on the other side. Why must we draw that line?

Just some thoughts. I love having this dialogue.

For me, breastfeeding my daughter came fairly easily (at least this is what I am told), and I only ever gave her formula when she had a slight case of jaundice during the first weeks of life. I remember for a long time, I could not understand why some women needed to bottle feed; in fact, my sister had to stop breastfeeding my nephew when he was 3 months old. Over time however, I recognize the guilt and pain that mothers give themselves over not having breastfed, and I realize that it is unfair for mothers to be so hard on themselves. I agree that we as women need to lift each other up and refrain from making judgments.

Oh, and regarding your last question: are women that bottle feed more likely to be abusive? I say no. Arguably, women that breastfeed may experience the calm after feelings of hormones associated with breastfeeding and bonding, but who is to say that a bottle feeding mother does not also experience such closeness with her child?

By the way - thank you to Annie who commented above. I totally agree. I breastfed my son for 14 months, but the first three weeks were extemely hard, painful and trying. It was hard to not give up, and I was the first of my friends to become a mom, so I had little support or help. I had to fight for it.

I'm not saying that if you had a hard time and chose to bottle feed instead that you didn't fight for it. But I agree with her that we should all be able to decide how long to fight and what's right for each of us and our children.

Like I said above... we make the best decisions we can for our kids. And we all have to make them ourselves. :) Things are never perfect.

<abbr>Anisas last blog post..Thrifty Thursday: “Optional” Coverage & Microfiber Miracle</abbr>

I am pro-breastfeeding. But I also feel that as mom's we try to the best we can with what we have (whether that be information, support, resources, friends, money or boobs).

A lot of the mom's here that have bottle fed seem to be feeling guilty over it. - My mom always says "Quit 'should-ing' all over yourself." Let go of the guilt.

We all make different choices for different reasons. And sometimes things don't go the way we want to. Is your child healthy? Then rejoice & let it go. It's a short time and if we waste it saying I should have done this or that, we miss out on the joy of it. :)

<abbr>Anisas last blog post..Thrifty Thursday: “Optional” Coverage & Microfiber Miracle</abbr>

I just wanted to say that it's great that breast feeding is being touted as the right way to feed your baby again, as opposed to formula feeding being the norm in the 70's. It really is the best thing for your baby. I was so looking forward to nursing my son and never ever ever feeding him formula. Only I couldn't do it. I tried, I tried, he latched just fine. I pumped and pumped and saw several lactation consultants. Nothing was coming out. I had no milk. I took herbs, drugs from New Zealand, pumped some more, saw more lactation consultants. Still no milk. Nothing. A week went by. More pumping. Finally a lactation consultant told me that it wasn't going to happen, I could not produce milk. I cried. A lot. I had been crying the whole time this was going on. But once I let go, it was sweet relief and a happy baby. But I still feel the need to justify to everyone who asks if I am nursing why I couldn't do it but I tried so hard. It's really none of their business, but then why do I feel so guilty?

Wow what a horrific experience! I am surprised though that the doctors never tested to see if she was just allergic to the breast milk in some way. I bring this up because of the two different diagnosises they gave you and that she's fine with formula.

<abbr>Brettneys last blog post..Talented Friends Corrie Hill Sullivan</abbr>

Thank you for sharing. I was in the same situation- my daughter was a premie in the ICU for 3 days, then due to jaundice was in the hospital for an additonal 6 days- since she was in a nursary, I had to visit my daughter instead of living in the same room with her.

When she came home she wanted nothing to do with breastfeeding- and later it was obvious why- she likes her food right away- as soon as she could hold a cup, the bottle was gone- when she is hungry she wants it now.

I pumped for 6 weeks- months short of my Breast feeding goal. I am glad I did that and I am glad I knew when I needed to be a mom to my daughter instead of trying to fullfill my idea of what a perfect mommy is. She thought I was perfect no matter how I fed her.

I really sympathize with mothers that have trouble breastfeeding, especially if they really wanted it to work. I don't blame or judge individual mothers for deciding what is too much for them personally in terms of how long they want to try or to what lengths they want to go if they are having trouble.

That said, I think your assertion that "I think that after two weeks if breastfeeding isn’t working for you, you need to just bottle feed formula" is misplaced. Just like you don't want me to judge you for giving up and switching to formula, I don't think it is your place to tell another mother how long is long enough or too long to try.

A lot of moms have trouble at the beginning and with the right support those troubles can be overcome. Many many moms are still struggling at the 2 week point, but go on to have a long and successful breastfeeding experience.

Personally, I had a lot of difficulty breastfeeding my son. He was 7.5 weeks old when he latched on for the first time and he was 15 weeks old when I was finally able to put the pump away and breastfeed exclusively. During that time period, I heard plenty of people like you try to tell me that enough is enough, formula is fine, and I should just give up. Well excuse me, but it wasn't their place or your place to tell me when I should give up. It was extremely important to me, I saw a light at the tunnel, I sought out the right type of support, and I persevered and ended up nursing my son for 2.5 years and I now provide breastfeeding support to other mothers.

For anyone that is interested, here is our story: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/12/29/our-br...

And if you are trying to support someone that is breastfeeding, that is having trouble, and that really wants to make it work, please read this about what support looks like: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/11/01/what-d...

<abbr>Annie @ PhD in Parentings last blog post..Wordless Wednesday: Peekaboo!</abbr>