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	<title>Comments on: The Green Religion Debate</title>
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	<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/</link>
	<description>Green living and parenting with organic tips, green parenting, eco-friendly reviews to inspire and motivate.</description>
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		<title>By: Beware False Prophets: A Global Warming Lesson &#124; Max Gladwell</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-2977</link>
		<dc:creator>Beware False Prophets: A Global Warming Lesson &#124; Max Gladwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-2977</guid>
		<description>[...] ways to live. But we do have a problem with zealotry and dogma. We touched on this a bit with Clean and Green Mom about environmentalism as a religion. It&#8217;s a dead end. The &#8220;vegan elite&#8221; wants to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ways to live. But we do have a problem with zealotry and dogma. We touched on this a bit with Clean and Green Mom about environmentalism as a religion. It&#8217;s a dead end. The &#8220;vegan elite&#8221; wants to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1996</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information on religion.
 
We recently wrote an  &lt;a href=&quot;http://brainblogger.com/2008/06/15/god-and-religion-is-it-all-in-our-heads/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; on religion at &lt;a href=&quot;http://brainblogger.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Brain Blogger&lt;/a&gt;. How do we really view religion? Could it be the very source of belief comes from our brain?
 
We would like to read your comments on our article. Thank you.
 
Sincerely,
Kelly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information on religion.</p>
<p>We recently wrote an  <a href="http://brainblogger.com/2008/06/15/god-and-religion-is-it-all-in-our-heads/" rel="nofollow">article</a> on religion at <a href="http://brainblogger.com/" rel="nofollow">Brain Blogger</a>. How do we really view religion? Could it be the very source of belief comes from our brain?</p>
<p>We would like to read your comments on our article. Thank you.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Kelly</p>
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		<title>By: To Think Is To Create</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1946</link>
		<dc:creator>To Think Is To Create</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1946</guid>
		<description>This is all so interesting!  I think that you and Tiffany are both right, which is why it&#039;s difficult to find the exact &quot;truth&quot; here.  

Yes, it&#039;s true that without a good amount of public pressure a lot of change will not or would not have happened.  I enjoy being held accountable by people I respect and admire.  However, there is a fine line.  

At the same time we do need to be aware of the &quot;message&quot;, and be able to welcome newbies into the fold without scaring them off or making them feel guilty.  It is very much like religion in that way, but frankly that&#039;s how all organized groups with a cause need to be run to be successful, so it&#039;s not something the religious people corner the market on.  Once they are a true &quot;convert&quot; then the deeper change and sacrifice can happen.  It won&#039;t work to *make* someone guilty because they will find excuses and never really commit.  If someone feels convicted and--yes, guilty--on their own, through their own discoveries, then I think there&#039;s nothing wrong with that.

You ladies rock, btw. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all so interesting!  I think that you and Tiffany are both right, which is why it&#8217;s difficult to find the exact &#8220;truth&#8221; here.  </p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s true that without a good amount of public pressure a lot of change will not or would not have happened.  I enjoy being held accountable by people I respect and admire.  However, there is a fine line.  </p>
<p>At the same time we do need to be aware of the &#8220;message&#8221;, and be able to welcome newbies into the fold without scaring them off or making them feel guilty.  It is very much like religion in that way, but frankly that&#8217;s how all organized groups with a cause need to be run to be successful, so it&#8217;s not something the religious people corner the market on.  Once they are a true &#8220;convert&#8221; then the deeper change and sacrifice can happen.  It won&#8217;t work to *make* someone guilty because they will find excuses and never really commit.  If someone feels convicted and&#8211;yes, guilty&#8211;on their own, through their own discoveries, then I think there&#8217;s nothing wrong with that.</p>
<p>You ladies rock, btw. <img src='http://greenandcleanmom.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: nadine sellers</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1932</link>
		<dc:creator>nadine sellers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1932</guid>
		<description>The divisive aspects of group-think are evident in all religious activities. The green movement must rely on the validity of its intent rather than individual&#039;s actions.
Competition and judgment lead to inadequacy and resentment, so each one of us needs to feed the positive earthling within and act comfortably, accordingly.

it has become a joy for me to find fervor and idealism in the discourse, the quiet personal nature i knew has expanded to the larger social spectrum, is it possible to bring mankind back to awareness? 

Man, the indiscriminate polluter, the believer of his own superiority above all else? Egosize me, man the large animal gone blind. Yes i think each one may learn in due time, and soon see.

nadine sellerss last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://greenadine.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/back-to-the-food-factory/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;back to the food factory.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The divisive aspects of group-think are evident in all religious activities. The green movement must rely on the validity of its intent rather than individual&#8217;s actions.<br />
Competition and judgment lead to inadequacy and resentment, so each one of us needs to feed the positive earthling within and act comfortably, accordingly.</p>
<p>it has become a joy for me to find fervor and idealism in the discourse, the quiet personal nature i knew has expanded to the larger social spectrum, is it possible to bring mankind back to awareness? </p>
<p>Man, the indiscriminate polluter, the believer of his own superiority above all else? Egosize me, man the large animal gone blind. Yes i think each one may learn in due time, and soon see.</p>
<p>nadine sellerss last blog post..<a href="http://greenadine.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/back-to-the-food-factory/" rel="nofollow">back to the food factory.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karsten</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>While I do not like that we cannot tolerate people who pollute our environment (Honestly, I wish I could just be and let them be), it will need to go that direction.  Public pressure needs to build. Laws need to change. Certain behaviors need to become unpopular. All this is a result of people getting fed up. So, intolerance is not bad if you need to change something. It seems that if you tolerate everything people do, people do whatever they please. Is a little bit of child pornography tolerable? Is a little bit of rape or child abuse acceptable in the name of tolerance? I don&#039;t think so.

This is not to say that it is correct to not tolerate and encourage people who try their best in regard to the environment. We all have to begin somewhere. It is valid though (in my opinion) to point out to them if something could be done better or if they claim to have needs that are not considered needs in other areas of our planet under similar circumstances. What you need can and should be discussed. It is discussed in every advertisement you see and most people do not have a problem with that discussion or even manipulation.  What you need is relative to your surroundings and the society you are part of. It used to be just your immediate area. We are now forced to look further and learn from those who have already learned how to do it better. They may not be North Americans. They may not live as we prefer to live. But they may have figured it out already. Is it not OK to look and learn? Is it not OK to be exposed to other people&#039;s habits and their feelings if what they do or know works better than what we do or know? Because it &quot;feels&quot; bad? That&#039;s it?

I find it a strange, wide-spread American thing to reject “finger pointing” or being made to feel guilty. We now live in a world in which most human actions need to be considered everyone’s business. Freedom is not unlimited any longer (as if it ever was!). If I point out that something seems to be not going right, I do not mind being “proven” wrong. Nonetheless, I think that not accepting reasonable criticism on those grounds is pretty lame. It is a strategy to reject the messenger, not the message. It is personal rather than issue-oriented. Accusing someone of finger-pointing or judging distracts from the arguments made, claims moral higher grounds, and shifts the discussion away from the facts to the character of the person questioning the actions.

Let&#039;s talk about how to best change and how to encourage each other to do even better than we do (notice the change of tone!), not how suggesting better solutions or how learning that other people make bigger steps makes you feel bad. It feels kind of whiny and selfish (sorry, that is how this feels to me!) in the light of the urgent situation. 

Karsten
--
http://www.polluteless.com
Practical (some good, some better) Advice to Pollute Less</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I do not like that we cannot tolerate people who pollute our environment (Honestly, I wish I could just be and let them be), it will need to go that direction.  Public pressure needs to build. Laws need to change. Certain behaviors need to become unpopular. All this is a result of people getting fed up. So, intolerance is not bad if you need to change something. It seems that if you tolerate everything people do, people do whatever they please. Is a little bit of child pornography tolerable? Is a little bit of rape or child abuse acceptable in the name of tolerance? I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
<p>This is not to say that it is correct to not tolerate and encourage people who try their best in regard to the environment. We all have to begin somewhere. It is valid though (in my opinion) to point out to them if something could be done better or if they claim to have needs that are not considered needs in other areas of our planet under similar circumstances. What you need can and should be discussed. It is discussed in every advertisement you see and most people do not have a problem with that discussion or even manipulation.  What you need is relative to your surroundings and the society you are part of. It used to be just your immediate area. We are now forced to look further and learn from those who have already learned how to do it better. They may not be North Americans. They may not live as we prefer to live. But they may have figured it out already. Is it not OK to look and learn? Is it not OK to be exposed to other people&#8217;s habits and their feelings if what they do or know works better than what we do or know? Because it &#8220;feels&#8221; bad? That&#8217;s it?</p>
<p>I find it a strange, wide-spread American thing to reject “finger pointing” or being made to feel guilty. We now live in a world in which most human actions need to be considered everyone’s business. Freedom is not unlimited any longer (as if it ever was!). If I point out that something seems to be not going right, I do not mind being “proven” wrong. Nonetheless, I think that not accepting reasonable criticism on those grounds is pretty lame. It is a strategy to reject the messenger, not the message. It is personal rather than issue-oriented. Accusing someone of finger-pointing or judging distracts from the arguments made, claims moral higher grounds, and shifts the discussion away from the facts to the character of the person questioning the actions.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s talk about how to best change and how to encourage each other to do even better than we do (notice the change of tone!), not how suggesting better solutions or how learning that other people make bigger steps makes you feel bad. It feels kind of whiny and selfish (sorry, that is how this feels to me!) in the light of the urgent situation. </p>
<p>Karsten<br />
&#8211;<br />
<a href="http://www.polluteless.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.polluteless.com</a><br />
Practical (some good, some better) Advice to Pollute Less</p>
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		<title>By: happyathome</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1904</link>
		<dc:creator>happyathome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1904</guid>
		<description>Goin&#039; green is not an overnight process.  Rome was not built in a day, go to Italy and you will see why!  The guilt always disturbs me, and pushes me away.  If I do a little at a time, I feel good.  Thanks Sommer for the post!
http://lifeislikechampagne.blogspot.com/

happyathomes last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://lifeislikechampagne.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-does-your-garden-grow.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;How does your garden grow?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goin&#8217; green is not an overnight process.  Rome was not built in a day, go to Italy and you will see why!  The guilt always disturbs me, and pushes me away.  If I do a little at a time, I feel good.  Thanks Sommer for the post!<br />
<a href="http://lifeislikechampagne.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://lifeislikechampagne.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>happyathomes last blog post..<a href="http://lifeislikechampagne.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-does-your-garden-grow.html" rel="nofollow">How does your garden grow?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tiffany</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1899</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiffany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1899</guid>
		<description>Agreed...I am in no way the perfect green person but I am always trying harder...that is all we can do. It isn&#039;t a race...just a journey. I am glad for the strong words and ideas of others though...it makes me work harder and aspire to be greater. It doesn&#039;t turn me off in the least. Its like a challenge for me.

Tiffanys last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.naturemoms.com/blog/2008/06/13/eco-wrap-cancer-free-summer-kitchens-and-yard-sales/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eco Wrap - Cancer Free, Summer Kitchens, and Yard Sales&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed&#8230;I am in no way the perfect green person but I am always trying harder&#8230;that is all we can do. It isn&#8217;t a race&#8230;just a journey. I am glad for the strong words and ideas of others though&#8230;it makes me work harder and aspire to be greater. It doesn&#8217;t turn me off in the least. Its like a challenge for me.</p>
<p>Tiffanys last blog post..<a href="http://www.naturemoms.com/blog/2008/06/13/eco-wrap-cancer-free-summer-kitchens-and-yard-sales/" rel="nofollow">Eco Wrap &#8211; Cancer Free, Summer Kitchens, and Yard Sales</a></p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1898</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1898</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure nobody is saying so and so is weird or extreme but rather to some people this might seem weird or extreme. Name calling is not necessary and isn&#039;t really happening. It might seem weird to some I drive an SUV but that doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;re calling me weird.  The extreme can go in the other direction as well. We can&#039;t take this out of context and lose the meaning of this discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure nobody is saying so and so is weird or extreme but rather to some people this might seem weird or extreme. Name calling is not necessary and isn&#8217;t really happening. It might seem weird to some I drive an SUV but that doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re calling me weird.  The extreme can go in the other direction as well. We can&#8217;t take this out of context and lose the meaning of this discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1897</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1897</guid>
		<description>I have to say, that it feels a little judgmental to be called &quot;extreme&quot; when you&#039;ve gone a little further than someone else.  It&#039;s not an extreme position to give up driving or eating meat, and it is pretty rude to call someone &quot;weird&quot; or sometimes &quot;a hippy&quot;.  I&#039;m all about celebrating even the baby steps, but those baby steps have to be your &quot;first steps&quot; that are followed by more and more steps as you travel down this road of lifestyle change.  Instead of looking at those who have traveled pretty far down the road and seeing them as judging you or as &quot;weird&quot; or &quot;extreme&quot;, it would be good to just see it as a spectrum with some having traveled farther than others.  What can we learn from each other?
I have decided to live my life guided by my values, rather than by our popular culture.  In that process, I have been called some unkind names.  Perhaps that alienation from the &quot;mainstream&quot; is what makes some people become judgmental of those they see as &quot;less-green&quot; than themselves.   And some of us really do want to make all those sacrifices that you said weren&#039;t for you.  We&#039;re not extremists, or weirdos.

Saras last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://learningumbrella.homeschooljournal.net/2008/06/12/waterwise-dishwashing/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Waterwise dishwashing&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say, that it feels a little judgmental to be called &#8220;extreme&#8221; when you&#8217;ve gone a little further than someone else.  It&#8217;s not an extreme position to give up driving or eating meat, and it is pretty rude to call someone &#8220;weird&#8221; or sometimes &#8220;a hippy&#8221;.  I&#8217;m all about celebrating even the baby steps, but those baby steps have to be your &#8220;first steps&#8221; that are followed by more and more steps as you travel down this road of lifestyle change.  Instead of looking at those who have traveled pretty far down the road and seeing them as judging you or as &#8220;weird&#8221; or &#8220;extreme&#8221;, it would be good to just see it as a spectrum with some having traveled farther than others.  What can we learn from each other?<br />
I have decided to live my life guided by my values, rather than by our popular culture.  In that process, I have been called some unkind names.  Perhaps that alienation from the &#8220;mainstream&#8221; is what makes some people become judgmental of those they see as &#8220;less-green&#8221; than themselves.   And some of us really do want to make all those sacrifices that you said weren&#8217;t for you.  We&#8217;re not extremists, or weirdos.</p>
<p>Saras last blog post..<a href="http://learningumbrella.homeschooljournal.net/2008/06/12/waterwise-dishwashing/" rel="nofollow">Waterwise dishwashing</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sommer</title>
		<link>http://greenandcleanmom.org/the-green-religion-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-1896</link>
		<dc:creator>Sommer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greenandcleanmom.org/?p=250#comment-1896</guid>
		<description>Tiffany,

Anyone that reg. reads your blog knows you&#039;re a wonderful mother, that is not being debated. They were scenarios or examples.  I 100% disagree that those going green are being hypocritical because they aren&#039;t doing everything and make the same sacrifices as the next person.  Tell me who then are we comparing ourselves to? Am I comparing myself to you? Should I compare myself to another mom and what she is doing? Who hold the title for us to live up to so we know what truly being &quot;green&quot; is? The person who make the most sacrifices? Isn&#039;t that up for debate on what is and is not a sacrifice? 

 It&#039;s not that offending someone is as much of a problem rather than turning people off who we need to help us with changing the future and making an environmental impact. 

No, Tiffany there is finger pointing and judgment. I&#039;m looking for nobody to blame for the choices I&#039;m making to justify how I feel. I don&#039;t feel guilty. I feel frustrated that people are sitting around comparing who&#039;s doing more, who&#039;s making what sacrifice, who&#039;s more green and gave up this or did that. I&#039;m sick to death of that and how it&#039;s turning off moms who are just doing their best everyday to be a little green. To some, yes doing everything that you mentioned is extreme and weird. To me, it is honorable and works for that person. I think it&#039;s great, regardless of what a person does, so long as they do something.  I guess a better was of phrasing this would be there are different ends of the spectrum. Neither is right or wrong. Neither is better or worse. Instead we are all on the same spectrum.  

What we dwell on and focus on we bring upon ourselves. Let&#039;s focus and think of the positives happening and encourage that.

Sommers last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/greenandcleanmom/~3/311241871/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Green Religion Debate&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tiffany,</p>
<p>Anyone that reg. reads your blog knows you&#8217;re a wonderful mother, that is not being debated. They were scenarios or examples.  I 100% disagree that those going green are being hypocritical because they aren&#8217;t doing everything and make the same sacrifices as the next person.  Tell me who then are we comparing ourselves to? Am I comparing myself to you? Should I compare myself to another mom and what she is doing? Who hold the title for us to live up to so we know what truly being &#8220;green&#8221; is? The person who make the most sacrifices? Isn&#8217;t that up for debate on what is and is not a sacrifice? </p>
<p> It&#8217;s not that offending someone is as much of a problem rather than turning people off who we need to help us with changing the future and making an environmental impact. </p>
<p>No, Tiffany there is finger pointing and judgment. I&#8217;m looking for nobody to blame for the choices I&#8217;m making to justify how I feel. I don&#8217;t feel guilty. I feel frustrated that people are sitting around comparing who&#8217;s doing more, who&#8217;s making what sacrifice, who&#8217;s more green and gave up this or did that. I&#8217;m sick to death of that and how it&#8217;s turning off moms who are just doing their best everyday to be a little green. To some, yes doing everything that you mentioned is extreme and weird. To me, it is honorable and works for that person. I think it&#8217;s great, regardless of what a person does, so long as they do something.  I guess a better was of phrasing this would be there are different ends of the spectrum. Neither is right or wrong. Neither is better or worse. Instead we are all on the same spectrum.  </p>
<p>What we dwell on and focus on we bring upon ourselves. Let&#8217;s focus and think of the positives happening and encourage that.</p>
<p>Sommers last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/greenandcleanmom/~3/311241871/" rel="nofollow">The Green Religion Debate</a></p>
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